What’s Science Got to Do With Love?

Welcome to Star Talk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. Star Talk begins right now. Welcome to Star Talk. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson. This week is a special mashup edition. We pulled together some of our favorite moments from various episodes about the science of sex and love. You'll hear clips from my interview with Dan Savage and Mary Roach, and you'll hear from comedians Kristen Schaal and Chuck Nice, and from our go-to love expert, Dr. Helen Fisher. So, without any further delay, in the words of the Beastie Boys, let's get busy. I love it. I see you feeling it. Man, turning myself on. I don't know what... Sometimes you feel the universe flowing through you. Right on. Well, you know, that's... When you're a Jedi, that happens. Shh! So, Chuck, welcome back. It's always good to be here, Neil. So, tonight, we're going to be talking about sex. And relationships. And dating. I like the first part of that. The other two, I can do it out, but the first part is awesome. I know you, you know, you're a man. I know you have some expertise, but it's not the kind of expertise I'm looking for in this. So, we've got to bring some extra armament in on this conversation. Professor Helen Fisher, welcome to Star Talk. Thank you. You are a specialist at, what is the academic specialty that describes you? Well, I'm a biological anthropologist. That's ten syllables. Yeah. Biological anthropologist. Exactly. Evolution. Evolution of love. Yeah. So, we're featuring today my interview with Dan Savage, who is like the online expert on love. Yeah. And relationships. And everything that go with it. And, you know, of course, we have a changing face of relationships today. Because it used to be, I was thinking it used to be a hangout at a bar, but people still do that. So, but the Internet has changed all of this and Tinder. Yeah. You know. Actually, these are very old. In fact, we're moving forward to the kinds of relationships we had a million years ago. Really? Yeah. We're actually setting about 10,000. I just mentioned Tinder, which operates on a smartphone, and your next line is, we've had this since cavemen. Yeah. Well, what do you do on Tinder? You look- First they would draw it and then they would swipe it. No, no, no. What they do, they swipe the actual person. But you, so, it's old, it's just a new method, you're saying? Yes, absolutely. Well, that's good to know. And what we found, and you've been at this for 30 years? Yeah, I'm a little more. A little more than 30. Job or sex? So, so, Dan Savage, you know, this resume is great because he puts his last name in all the names of stuff. So, so he's got a column called Savage Love. Yeah, you know, how could you not read that, right? And, and he's got the host of the Savage Love cast. Yes. You know, you gotta say that. The Savage Love cast. Wait, can I, can I, go, go as deep as you can. Love cast. Love cast. So, Dan is, he's like the go-to man for people who are having troubles in their relationships, want some advice in modern times. So let's look at my interview with Dan Savage and we'll just find out how do you become an expert sex columnist. Let's check it out. It was an accident. It's the kind of job you really can't run out looking for. You can't go to any university and get a degree in advice column name. I met somebody who was starting a newspaper and I said, oh, you should have an advice column because everybody reads them. You see that Q&A format, you have to read it. Who, who was that? Tim Keck, who was the- Okay, why do I even know that name? He was the founder of The Onion. And so at first it was just a joke. I was going to, because I was a gay guy and I was going to write this advice column about straight sex for straight people. And the joke was I was going to treat straight people and straight sex with the same contempt and revulsion that straight advice columnists like Ann Landers had always treated gay people and gay sex with. That would be hilarious. It was hilarious. And straight people loved it because it was a new experience for them to be treated that way. And I just started getting- As the weird one. As the weird one. And I started getting tons of letters with real questions in them. Then my fake joke, gonna do this for six months or a year advice column turned into I've been doing it for 24 years, real advice column. Do you feel qualified? This question is not about whether you're academically qualified, but just whether you're culturally qualified to advise on any combination of these gender permutations as we would say in mathematics. Well, the only qualification you need to give your advice is some idiot was fool enough to ask you for it. Dan Savage. Yeah. That's very cool. Did you catch the fact that I was not in shirt and tie in that interview? I was going to say that I really, really like being relaxed, kneeling back. I stripped down on my t-shirt on that one. Yeah. So I can hang with the man. Okay, right on. That was very gay of you, Neil. Thank you. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Let me go on record and say that that is my fantasy of my gay boyfriend. Is that right? Yeah, if I had a gay boyfriend, that would be like, you know what I mean? He's like good-looking and smart and you know what I mean? And he's funny and you know, like, that would be the guy. You're talking here, yeah. True confessions. You heard it here. So of course, relationships and advice columns is- somewhere you part the curtains, there's typically the search for love in there. So you're an academic. Have you been able to define love? Absolutely. Yes! I think we've evolved three distinctly different brain systems for mating and reproduction. One is the sex drive, second one is feelings of intense romantic love, and the third is feelings of deep attachment. And I think all different forms of love are, you know, all kinds of different permutations, you like that word, combinations of these three basic brain systems operating in all kinds of ways to- And that allows you to explain a lot of behavior that people exhibit when they're falling in and out of love. But what I study is, I really study romantic love, the second of those three things. And there's a very specific things that happen. The first thing that happens when you fall madly in love is a person takes on what I call special meaning. And then you focus on them. You can list what you don't like about them, but you just sweep that aside and then focus on what you do. Okay, so do you, now, my record show here that you, you're like an advisor for match.com. Is that right? I'm Chief Scientific Advisor to Match. Chief Scientific Advisor. I gotta tell you, right now, I just got a little more attracted to you. And that works for me. Hey, get a room, you know. Get a room. So, so what's going on in the mind of a one-night stand? Of a one-night stand? Are they equally as well? The problem with that is, is not going on in the mind. First of all, it's, well, you can, all kinds of people, over one-third of Americans have had a one-night stand. Actually almost 60% have had a one-night stand. But what's interesting about one-night stands, over 30% turned into a long-term partnership. And that's exactly how... There's brain circuitry for why. So basically, casual sex is not casual. Unless you're so drunk, you don't remember it. It's not casual. Things happen in the brain. I had to ask Dan that, because people are asking him this all the time. He's in a long-term marriage that began as a one-night stand. A lot of people have. I mean, as I say, over 30% of people have had a one-night stand turn into a long-term relationship. Let's find out what he's going to tell us about one-night stands. I think that happens a lot more often than we know, because people who meet... Because the one-night stand has such a stigma. Right. People who have sleazy meetings, they don't tell their kids about it. If your parents met in rehab, if your parents met in a sex club or a dungeon somewhere, they're not going to... Or the backseat of a 57 Chevy. They're not going to tell you. I actually wrote a series of columns. This is how long I've been doing my advice column. While Ann Landers was writing hers, she wrote a column, a bunch of columns, where she invited her readers to share their how they met stories. And they were all these meat, cute stories. I danced with this boy at a USO, danced during the war, and then we wrote letters to each other all through the war, and then we met. And it was the generation who are now full up with those. Yeah, but they were all so innocent, all of her stories, and I was just thinking about the people I knew who were in successful, loving, long-term relationships, many of which had really not innocent starts, who met, who had one-night stands like Terry and I did, who met in rehab, who had a drunken three-way, and then fell in love with the guest at the three-way, the third, the spare, and those aren't the stories you're going to tell your grandparents or your kids. No, that never gets out. No. No, no. So we have this distorted view of how a decent loving relationship must start, and then people do this thing. No, wait, I have to interrupt. You made such an important point there, because if we give the view of love and romance that we want to be true, and that's what percolates, then we establish culture and social mores based on that, so that if anyone is different from it, you get ostracized. Or- That's tragic, but it's actually not, I think, the most damaging aspect of this sort of cultural belief that no decent relationship can have a sleazy start, because people will discount people as potential partners that they had a sleazy meeting with. They will say, you know, I might date this person. This might have been someone I would date, but look at what they did. I couldn't date this person. We had a one-night stand, and no decent relationship can grow from a one-night stand. So I can't date this person. And no, decent relationships grow all the time from one-night stands. Oh, absolutely, they do, for good biological reasons too. Yeah. I mean, any stimulation of the genitals drives up the dopamine system and can, you can fall, push you over the threshold into falling in love. And then with orgasm, there's a real flood of oxytocin giving you feelings of deep attachments. Sex is a drug is what you just said. Sex is a drug, definitely a huge drug. What people- But an even bigger drug is romantic love. People don't- You ask somebody to casually go to bed with you and they say, no, thank you. You don't kill yourself. You know, around the world- Speak for yourself. Most crimes and passions aren't over that. Yeah, but what about- Okay, you said something very important. That this is a natural biochemical phenomenon going on within us all. Absolutely. It is biology. So, then why does the One Night Stand carry a stigma? That's a really good question. I'll tell you mine. Because part of it is what he said, which was it doesn't make for a great story later on when you're with that person. That's why even if you did meet and when I stand, you will change the story. You will not say to your children, you know, when I met your mother, that ballgag looked so great in her mouth and the way she used that riding crop was amazing. She gave me a discount. I can't imagine that's going to be the start of a good relationship, to be perfectly honest with you. I think that, you know, I mean, for thousands of years, marriage was the beginning of a relationship. Now it's the finale. We are really doing what I call fast sex and slow love. So love, we speak of it as being something that you- you're implying all these urges. Imply that you know much more about the person than some people would claim who would assert that they were in love, for example, on first sight. Yeah. It's very easy to explain love at first sight, actually. So you can explain everything. Well, not everything, but I can do that one. So when we come back, let's find out more about love at first sight on Star Talk. We are back, Star Talk. Chuck Nice. Hey, hey. Chuck in the house. In the house. And we've got Helen Fisher, an expert on sex, because tonight we're talking about sex. And love. And love, and relationships. And we're featuring my interview with Dan Savage, and he's a author of Savage Love, the advice column. Only the best kind. So, I'm curious about something. Some of those famous love stories would include, I don't know, Cleopatra. And there's beauty that might attract, if it's female beauty, heterosexual female beauty, we think of the beauty of Helen of Troy. And she wants the thousand ships. You know, looks do count. I mean, there's breaking points all through a relationship. And the very first thing you do is you look at them. This is why Tinder is popular. That's why Tinder is popular. Exactly. Love at first sight. Is it love at first sight, or is it lust at first sight? It depends, you know. It's both. I mean, it's very often both. I mean, you can trigger the brain circuitry for romantic love, and then everything about a person is sexy from that moment on. And then you can go to bed with somebody and trigger the brain circuitry for romantic love. So they can be very well connected. She's got the wire and going, going. Unless you're so drunk, you can't remember it, of course. You know, sex doesn't mean something. I asked Dan Savage, is love at first sight really possible? Yes. Because he's got data from people trying to ask him about it. Let's check it out. Love at first sight is one of those phenomena that is... Some people believe it's true because... Well, because it would happen to them. It jibes with their personal experience. But it's a logical fallacy because you may have had the exact same initial feelings about somebody else and it didn't work out. And so you don't say love at first sight isn't true because when I felt love at first sight feelings for this person and it didn't work out, it disproved the theory. But I felt it for this person and it worked out, so it proves the theory. So they remember the hits and not the misses is what it is. Right. And you could be with somebody where you had this love at first sight feeling, be with them all your life and you can say, oh, love at first sight is a true thing and it actually happens. But somebody else may have had the exact same feelings for another person who turned out to be a jerk and it didn't work out. You may have had the exact same feelings for somebody before you had your love at first sight experience. Love at first sight, hate at second sight. Yeah, love at first sight, hate in divorce court 15 years later. Yeah, so he's looking at all the data. Not all of the data. Well, no, but if you had love at first sight and you ended up divorced, then it's not really the true love that people look for from fairy tales. Ah, true love. That's a different issue. But the bottom line is it's very easy to explain love at first sight. The brain circuitry for romantic love is like the fear system. You can be scared instantly and you can fall in love instantly. And we really want to get to know somebody before we ever tie the knot. And so first thing is we get right in bed with them. You learn a lot between the sheets about somebody. And then you move into the friends with benefits. So basically, you know, you get them in the bed right off the bat or on the pool table, whatever. And then you get, you know, the friends with benefits. And then you live together. And even with the marriage, one third of Americans want to have some sort of prenup agreement. So you know, but because we are marrying so much later, and really knowing the person before we do marry them, I think I'm very optimistic about the future that more and more relationships will retain, will remain. So this is the secret to a successful relationship is what you're suggesting. I don't want to advise people to do it on a pool table in order to have a 50 year marriage. He set the part about getting to know each other. Let's find out what Dan Savage, what his recipe might be for a successful relationship. Check it out. I think being good to each other, taking care of each other and not taking each other for granted and to try to keep things in perspective. You know, as a relationship advisor, what I'm constantly noticing is people who are obsessed with the things in their relationships that annoy them and they can be very articulate and long-winded about their partner's faults or the things that they're dissatisfied with in the relationship and nowhere near as long-winded or articulate about their partner's strengths or what's good about the relationship. I call it paying the price of admission in a long-term relationship. There are things about your partner, there are edges you're going to want to stand off. There are things that as you come together, you're going to carve a groove in each other so you fit. There's no the one. There's no perfect person for you. There's maybe a.64 and you round that guy up to one or that woman up to one or that some other point along the gender spectrum up to one. You make them the one. That's an act of will that you did for them and they're doing the same for you. To make that happen. That's an under recognized need in a relationship because people are saying, I want the person who I will then never have to change. In practice, no. If such a person exists, you're not finding them because there's 7 billion people in them. So that person doesn't exist. Even inside of 7 billion. Even in 7 billion, that person, even if we get to 7 trillion, that person does not exist. People grind against each other, people annoy each other. So the inter, in math, we might call that the intersection function. That function will, in any healthy relationship, need to be continually adjusted and modified. Right. But my point is, with the price of admission, is you send off the edges you can send off so you fit together more comfortably. But then you have to identify those things that, no matter how much you bitch and complain about them, will never change. And you have to ask yourself, is this person worth paying the price of admission to put up with that? And not put up with it and complain about it and guilt them about it all the time. Put up with it and shut up about it. So you have to weigh the rest of the relationship and say that it's worth it. We're back with Star Talk Radio, and I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and I'm here with Kristen Schaal. Such a pleasure to be here, Neil. It is. I love having you on this, and I got you here because, not just because you're funny and I like having you around, but on this show of the science of sex, who knew that you had written a book called The Sexy Book of Sexy Sex? Yeah, I know a lot about sex. And that makes you an expert. So we also have a clip from my interview with Mary Roach, who wrote the book Bonk. Okay. Right, she's into one syllable, one word book titles. And she studied the science of sex. In this next clip, she mentioned some surprising facts about erections. The only other erectile tissue in the human body is in the nose. When you have a cold, you basically have a nose boner. Did you, you didn't know that? I did not know that. The nipples, that's a different erection system. That's muscles squeezing. That's not erectile tissue. That's a muscular erection of... You're saying it's not filling with blood? Isn't that what it is? Not in the nipples, no. The nipples are little muscles squeezing it upright. The nose... I didn't know that. The nose, it's that spongy... Spongy that fills with blood. So people who have enlarged nose from the flu, they have nose erections. That's what you're telling me. Yes, exactly. Okay. And okay, here's another good... Wait, so the nipples is just muscles... Muscles, yeah, like contracting. To squeeze it and push it up. Okay, why are they contracting? What value is that to... Oh, I don't know the answer to that. Yeah, I don't know why when it's cold, they do that. When it's cold or aroused, which is two really different things, right? Yes, exactly. Well, I would imagine it has to do with suckling, with breastfeeding, like it helps the child to find the nipple. If you're manipulating the nipple and then it gets erect, then it's easier to find. And it's easiest for your sexual arousal system to be brought to bear when you're breastfeeding so that you can feed the child and want to do so again and again. Right. Otherwise the child dies. Right, so that makes sense. And so your sexual arousal system is a really convenient system to tap when you're breastfeeding. Yeah, when you're talking about something, life and death, passing on your genetic material. Right, right, okay. It's a handy reinforcing system. So give me another top tidbit. Okay, here's one. Women have nocturnal erections on the same sort of cycle as men. Little tiny, little clitoral erections. And that somebody wired up a fairly large clitoris with a strain gauge, figured it out, brought them into a lab. Now here's one. Tell me the difference between an erection that's sexually aroused and one that's just there. That has no correspondence with sex at all. One that's just there? Is it possible for the body to just do it without stimulus because it's just, you know, three in the afternoon? Well, not like a nocturnal. Well, I don't know. That's one theory that I've heard is it's just sort of the body making sure everything still works. It doesn't really like just, you know, in the same way that you turn on a 1964 Mustang every six months to make sure it's like, just turn it on and make sure everything. Pulmonary system, check. Check. Sexual arousal, check. Did you know this about your nipples? Yeah, I figured. Cause I think in caveman times too, when the ladies were out and they were cold, maybe they could get a guy to give them a hug. Before they invented fire. In that last clip, we talked about surprising facts about erections. You talk much about erections in your book? Oh yeah, definitely. Especially about erectile dysfunction. Really, what do you say about it? Just that you should kill yourself if you have it, I think. Sorry. That's why there's medicine. Because I think, you know, the frontier of sexual research, as Mary Roach will tell us in the next clip, might be through medications, through pharmaceuticals. And look at all the other things we enhance in life by chemically induced forces, right? I mean, if you're a little sleeping, you wanna be awake, pump yourself with caffeine. So you wanna lift high, heavier weights, you get steroids. You want, get the red out of your eye, you use, you know, Vizin or whatever is the brand. That's a chemical? Everything we put in our body is a chemical. That's what it's all about. We're just a sack of chemicals. We're just gonna be adapting to the chemicals. So it's we and the chemicals together that makes the life that we lead. And so why wouldn't that also play out with regard to sex? So let's find out what Mary Roach says about the frontier of sexual research in chemistry. Give it to me, Roach. Is there still a frontier of sexual research that is beyond what has been done so far? Well, these days it tends to be pharmaceutical stuff, like looking for a pill for post-menopausal women with flagging libido. That's where all the money is now. Of course, right. Yeah, it's sort of looking kind of, it isn't a female Viagra, because obviously Viagra has to do with, you know, vasodilation and erect, women don't need an erection. But metaphorically, it's the same. Well, it has to do with sex drive and libido. That's what they're looking for. Viagra is more for a performance. Here's what I wonder, if your libido drops and you're just less interested in sex, what's your incentive to bring it back? Like, what do you care? Just have less sex. Your husband wants you to. Oh, so it's a mismatch. It's a mismatch, right. And especially now that there's Viagra, because it used to be maybe there was a little bit of harmony and advancing years and now you bring Viagra in and not a man's ready at any time of day. And the woman's like, oh, my God, are you kidding me? For at least four hours at a time. At least that's right. Or it can be upsetting if you're somebody who used to have a really healthy libido and you think this is part of who I am and all of a sudden you just don't think about sex anymore. And maybe that's something you want to change. So if we find a chemical that will make women aroused when they wouldn't otherwise be, and then you have Viagra, then do you worry that the future of the world, everyone is just having sex? And then the economy collapses? Maybe that's why the economy is collapsing now. One big S-fest. Let's go to my next clip with Mary Roach. She was kind enough to visit me in my office at the Alien Planetarium. I know it was fun. It was fun. And I pulled out my trusting microphone. Let's talk about arousal and the role of pornography. Usually what's going on with the scientists in the white coats and the people having sex, it's one person and a finger or a vibrator. I mean, if you're studying arousal and orgasm, you don't need two people. So just for simplicity's sake, just you have one person come in and whether you're in an MRI or whatever, you're rigging them up for measurement, it's simpler to stop. So it's really just the autonomic response. So it's not the arousal triggered by another person. It assumes you could do it yourself or that a machine can do it to you. And sometimes they show pictures, yes, they call it visual erotic stimulation. It's porn. Get that in one syllable, porn. So they'll show snippets. And I thought there was a special educational scientific research porn supply house. I said, where do you get these films? And she looked at me like, of course, you get them at the porn shop. You get the porn on the corner porn shop. They're not a special medical version. I thought it was like a special, somehow sanitized, erotic, scientific video, but no. Is there an understanding of why women are perfectly arousable with soft core porn in ways that a man might require hardcore porn? Do they look at sex differences among arousal? You know, this is kind of counterintuitive, but what they found, surprisingly, that men were aroused by porn that fit their sexual orientation. Like they weren't aroused by gay or if there are animals involved or whatever. They were aroused by men and women having sex or women and women, because there's two naked women. But the women responded to anything. The entire spectrum? The entire spectrum. Animals? Anything. You name it. They responded in terms of the measurement. You know what they would say, but what the body was reacting to. Vaginal blood flow. Because they can't say. Well, or they just didn't pick up on it. Like either they were in denial or they were so subtle that they weren't picking up on it. But physiologically, they responded to everything. They used, I think, some images of bonobo monkeys, anything, anything. No one thinks that people think of, you know, man is being visually stimulated and women is just could care less. But if you asked the women, they wouldn't necessarily say that. They didn't mean they might say that didn't do anything for me. But there we have electrodes that say otherwise, their vaginas were saying otherwise. And this is also there's a disconnect with women between the vagina, the body and the brain. Like Viagra actually does quote unquote work on women. It does increase vaginal blood flow, but the women don't pick up on it. They don't feel aroused. It doesn't change. No, no, it does have an effect, but it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, which is make them feeling like they want to have sex. So it doesn't affect the libido. It doesn't affect the libido. So that is an interesting disconnect that isn't there with men so much. And I asked a researcher like, well, why, why is that? She said, well, it could be just because if you're a man, you know, and you have an erection, it's kind of hard to ignore. And you're a woman, it's a little more subtle. Wow. So women are turned on by everything. Yeah, that's awesome. Even if you won't admit it to yourself. Well, I'll admit it. I've watched game porn and I really like it. Really? Yeah. Gay guys, guys doing it. Well, that's two guys. Four guys in a train. They can do that. Okay, and for women? They can do a lot of stuff. Yeah, but what Mary Roach was saying is it's animals and- Bonobos monkeys are incredible too. They just like it. Yeah, they just like, they'll hump you to say hello. They're amazing. And they're very close genetically to us. So maybe we're in denial of true inner urges. Maybe. You know, usually to find monogamous other animals, we have to like find tree shrews or something, or bald eagles, but not the very closest genetic identity to us, the bonobo chimps. So what do you know about bonobos? Did you like see the Nature Channel or what? Oh yeah, well I researched them for the book. We have a section, we have a section in the book about them because they're so- In your book, the Sexy Book of Sexy Sex? Yeah, we have a section about our, because what we did is we went into the jungle and we lived with the bonobos. So we learned our language from them. So sex is their vehicle to communicate ideas and thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. So are you in denial of this result? No, 100% I agree. You're on it. Well, because women too, I think, well, I don't know, you know, because the biggest sexual organ of course is the brain. And so it's silly to say that- That's what women tell each other, right? A guy would never say that. It's well known, the guy's brain ceases functioning. Well, what should they for today? The brain is the man's smallest sexual organ, okay? It plays no role. Yeah, but we have fantasies and also we have all our smut novels too, you can't forget those. Like on the chain, like, that's how I learned about sex too, was I would just flip to page 60 and page 180 of all those- That's all you need, just hit the two pages. That's when they started it. That's when they started, then they had a fight and then, oh, made it up. Makeup sex, right? Okay. I knew a woman who was a romance novelist, who was like, I was kind of scared to walk by her. Why? Well, cause, you know, you just never know what's going on in their head. Oh, well, what's going on in her head is going on in all our heads. All right, when we come back, more of the science of sex with Kristen Schaal and my clips with the author, Mary Roach. You're listening to Star Talk Radio. See you in a moment. Welcome back to Star Talk. Here's more of this week's episode. So Chuck, what questions you have called from our listening audience? Well, you know, I recognize this handle as somebody I know on Twitter, so I figure I'll go ahead and read this. This is from Ben Makes TV, and he wants to know this. Why does no one love me? Oh, yeah, and I'm gonna say it's because you pleasure yourself publicly on the train. People just can't forget that, Ben. They can't forgive you for it. Let me broaden the question, Helen, and ask, is there someone for everyone? Sure. If there is, then the person who can't find love is not looking hard enough. They're not looking hard enough. You know, if you go on these dating sites, it does require some work, you know? First of all, he's probably too picky. You know, lower your standards. Looking for love. I mean... When in doubt, lower your standards. Is this advice you're giving us, Helen? I got your book here, The Anatomy of Love. You're telling us... Think of reasons to say yes. You know, there's a huge part of the brain that enables us to overlook the negative and focus on the positive. Do it all the time. And we want to. Yeah, but one of the problems when you're meeting people online is you know so little about them when you start out that you over... You know, you overweight those few things that you know. And you break it up before you, the more you get to know somebody, the more you like them. You gotta give people a chance, you know. See, now that is a chemical thing because... And I'm probably gonna get in trouble if I say this. We can edit this, Chuck. All right, so here's the truth. I have often sat and said to myself why after 18 years of marriage... Okay, stop there. Okay. Let me protect Chuck from himself. I'm not gonna say this. I don't even hear it. Back away from the microphone, Chuck. But I've put people in Scanner. It's possible to remain in love long term. I and my colleagues have put 17 people into the Scanner who were married an average of 21 years. So you're behind the game. I'm still in love. No, that's my point. Back away from the mic, Chuck. You're right. I said, OK, but I'm still in love. However, no, no, listen to me. You know what? Listen, if I were to put it down on paper, I should not be in love. I should not be. I should not be. This woman, I love her to death and there's nothing she can do that's wrong. And if I were to actually go and say all the stuff that I probably would be like, no, I don't like that. No, I don't like that. I should have left long ago. So if you deconstruct your relationship, there's nothing there but in total it's working for you. Oh my God. It's the best thing ever happened to me in my life. So Helen. We evolved it. Thanks. We evolved to deceive. Chuck, you're lying to yourself. You are in love with your wife. You are overlooking the negative and there's a huge part of the brain that enables you to do that and bless it. So, so, but let me, let me get, let me come in the back door there. If you do have a list of what you like in someone and then you put it on one of these websites and then you find someone that matches it, the premise is that's your, that's your soulmate. But what Chuck is saying is if you laid out the inventory, if you laid out the portfolio of what, then no, he would have never met her in this way. I would have never met her this way. I bet that there are real, no, you wouldn't have met her. I would have never met her. But what you did meet her, there is things about that woman that you really like that ring deep into your love map. What of these websites that are matching people up and slicing and dicing them in these, what is it? Farm? farmers.com. farmers.com. Do farmers can mate other farmers, meet and mate with other farmers? It's a whole lifestyle so that you can understand it. But the bottom line is these are not dating services. These are introducing services. The only true algorithm is your own human brain. So the faster you can get out and meet the guy or girl in the bar, in the street, you know, it's just giving you a whole range of people and then you got to do the job. We can give you the people but you got to do the job. And that's what's really thrilling. But would you agree that if you pre, if you proscribe what you think you're going to be attracted to, that is greatly restricting your options? The problem is... Or it could be at least. At least there's a potential for that, right? It's... Listen, staying at home and looking for somebody under the couch is certainly going to not do much for your options. I mean, the bottom line is, you know, how many people do you meet through your friends? How many do you meet at work? How many people do you meet when you're playing at the fitness center? And you run through all that. And then how are you going to meet people? No, I think these dating services, introducing services, give you a much broader range than we've ever had in all of our history. I would agree. Wait, even the ones that specify that because there's J-date for Jews and lately, there's like a white people one. And white people meet. White people. Do they really have a hard time finding? And then black people meet, to which I told a friend, how could I ever meet a white girl when black people meet? No, but how craziness is that? But do white people actually have a problem finding other white people in a country that's... Apparently, all these white people live in Detroit. It's just like, I don't know where I'm going to find another white person every time I look around. I need a web service to help me find white people. But you do meet many more people on these dating sites than we ever did through all of history. Plus, throughout your life. I mean, we've got things like Our Time, which is for people over 50. I mean, I can't stand in a bar and have the perfect boy walk by. Uh-huh. You're selling yourself short there, Helen. Thank you. So Chuck, what are the questions you got there? So tell you, we told our boy here to get out, get the hell off the couch. Ben, get out the house. Get out the house, Ben. That's the answer to your question. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, just, just, I'm sorry, just to round that out, round out that question. Should someone change themselves to be more attractive to other people? Should they go through a makeover? Should they change their hair? Other than the minimum hygiene that we expect in society, should someone do that if they're desperate for love? And then, then if they find that person, did that person fall in love with what they created for themselves? And is it not really that? Well, we do fall in love with what we created for ourselves, no matter what. Even if somebody fits somewhat within your love map, you overlook what doesn't fit and you focus on what you do. So we're constantly, yeah, that's what it is. We have this, you know, we evolve as small children, we grow up and we, we create a list, unconscious list of what we're looking for in a partner. And then you see the perfect person at the perfect time and they fit pretty much in your love map and you get rid of, excuse me, what you, what you don't like and you just focus on what you do. So that's, that's good. But what was that other question? No, I'm saying that, you know, what you're saying makes a lot of sense, should you change yourself? All right. You know, and on the one hand, the answer is no. Yeah, I mean, if you're a man, because don't worry, she's going to do that for you, you do not have to worry. Sit in the car and be yourself, man, because whatever you are and whoever you are, that is not what you are going to be in two years. It's a good project for us girls. Yeah. We have a lot of work to do. Let me tell you, I have a friend that I saw has been 20 years since we've seen each other and we got to hang out. I was in Philadelphia and we got to hang out, haven't seen each other in 20 years. And that's my hometown. And at the end of the night, he was like, wow, man, you really have changed. And he really hadn't. He's not married. What did you change? He's just me. What did you change about yourself? Well, mostly now that I'm married, I'm gay. That's the most thing, you know, because. I think you need to do change, listen, if it's not working, you ought to make some changes. But I wouldn't certainly make any changes. I mean, first of all, it's very hard to make changes in personality. You can be somebody else, but it's tiring. Out of character. It's an investment of energy at all times. And as it turns out, you know, you'll turn off, I mean, by being who you are, you will turn off some people. But when you find the right one, that person is going to really love you. So I wouldn't make huge changes. Sure, you know, you can you can change your hair and and maybe stop swearing or or, you know, read a little bit more so that you're better educated or whatever. Comfort changes that might make the other person comfortable. Without really totally messing with you. Without really messing with you. Exactly. And that's as far as you don't like of you. And, you know, you can work on that, too, but, you know, as you say, she's going to work on you, too. Oh, rest assured. Next question. Let us move on. Men do their work, too. You know, women are always scrambling to please. But we don't know that that's what you're doing for us. You just appear that way. And we think, hey, wow, I really like that. Not knowing that you spent five hours creating that, which we just said we like. That was very profound what you just said. Because that is the difference between what makes a woman appreciate you because you noticed what she did. You just gave the true male perspective, which is we're appreciative of it. We just think like, wow, look at you. This is how you look. Yeah, we're completely oblivious. Completely oblivious that you actually took effort and time to make yourself look that way. We're just like, wow, okay, that looks good. We're idiots. Basically, we can. I don't know. I am from Foremen and I don't think you're idiots, but yeah, I'll keep to my self-deception on that. Okay, exactly. All right. All right. Here we go. This is Ray coming to us from Twitter as well. And Ray has a very simple, succinct question, but I think it's quite in-depth when you look at it. Why does love hurt? Oh, boy. Boom. That's all he asked, but I got to say, that's pretty prolific what he just said. He just asked. It really does. So we've put a lot of people into a scanner who had just been dumped. And the brain regions that become active when you've been dumped is three brain regions linked with intense craving, a brain region linked with physical pain. Physical pain, a brain region. And actually, aspirin helps when you're rejected in love. There's an academic article on that. And also anxiety that goes along with the physical pain. And you're also brain regions linked with trying to figure out what went wrong, the costs, the benefits, what happened here. And I think so the brain is in overdrive. It is in a terrible state. This is why we have all these crimes of passion, you know? And why does it hurt? It hurts because you've lost, once I said, you know, life's greatest prize, a mating partner. I mean, you've lost the ability to pass your DNA on to eternity. I think nature overdid it, to be perfectly honest, and you really suffer terribly. And there's basically two stages of getting rejected. The first is protest. You just try to win the person back. You'll try to seduce, you'll try to threaten, you'll try to make them jealous and all that. And then you slip into this incredible depression. Unless you get them back. And then you get them back. In which case you slip into indifference, like, why did I ever want you? Why do I keep doing this? You've heard that other people say this. Yes, exactly. You've read about it, Chuck. But I think it hurts to... She says it's a real part of the brain center that is responsible. There's no question about it. Big parts of the brain become incredibly overactive. You can't eat, you can't sleep, you can't stop crying. So it's disruptive to your human physiology. Yes. And to your social relations. So lovesick is an actual sick. It's an actual sick. And you can die from being rejected. Wait, don't tell me you die from a broken heart. You die from heart attacks and strokes. So the stress. Okay, so your heart did break. Stress actually manifests itself physically and you end up dying of a stroke or a heart attack because of... It drives up the dopamine system in the beginning and that gives you all that energy and focus and motivation and craving. And then after a while you can't get them, you finally give up and you slip into sort of a profound depression. How about, okay, as a corollary to this, there are people who are in love with people they've never met. Yes. Isn't that it? So now, are they, they're not the... They're practicing. They're not the mating partner that they got to know intimately, but nonetheless the sentiment is still there. It's a crush. It's largely teenagers, but it can be somebody at work you don't ever dare come close to, but you know, you feel all that. It'll go away. They're grown... I agree with the teenager thing, but isn't that more women and when you get older, it's the male stalker of the women? Men fall in love faster than women do. They fall in love more often than women do. When they meet somebody that they really like, they want to introduce them to friends and family sooner. Men want to move in sooner. Men have more intimate conversations with their wives than women do with their husbands because women have their intimate conversations with their girlfriends and men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. So men are the more passionate romant... So basically... Just to be clear, I think we're more likely to commit suicide in all categories. Probably yes. I think so. Yes, and homicide, you know. Right, right. It's a more delicate... Men are just completely messed up. All I was going to say is, sounds like we're a bunch of love pussies. That's what it comes down to. I'm not going to get there without you, man. Women are pretty bad, believe me. I've had them on my couch. So okay, so we've established it's real. It's real. It's not imagined. Nobody gets out of it. You can't just say get over it. It's like breaking your leg and saying get over it. Exactly. As a matter of fact, a week later, you can't remember any physical pain in your tooth, but a week later, you're still really suffering from romantic rejection. Wow. So that's baggage, I think. That's evolutionary baggage. Is there any truth to the fact that they say for every year you're together, it takes six months to get over? I don't know the... That's interesting. Yeah. They say so forever. If you're together with someone... So at some point, it would take longer than your life, your actuarial life expectancy. Exactly. To get over it. But it depends on who you are, what your other alternatives are, how much you invested in it, how well you are. There's going to be many forces in how you get over it. Whether you brought the couch together, because then you'll have to take the chainsaw, cut it in half when you split up. Oh, thank God we didn't buy the dog together. Here we go. Move on up. This is Joe Pettengill from Portland, Oregon, coming to us through Facebook once you know this. Biologically, how does the love of a pet differ from the love of a person or love of an object? This would mean a person's love of a pet, not a pet's love of a person. Right, not a pet's love of a person. Even though that's very interesting. I'd like to know about that now that you brought it up. Like, you know. I don't know if she studies non-human animals. Oh, that's right. Well, I do. I do, because you have to understand. You scare me every day you keep talking and telling me what you put in your machine. I think that's very cool. I think my dog wants to bang me. But, you know, there's a constellation of traits that are linked with feelings. You have permission to use that word in that way for me. Oh, thank you. A constellation. Yes, good. And among those things are the drive to actually have sex with the person. And you really don't. Most people want to have sex with their dog. So you have many of the traits linked with romantic love. I mean, the obsession, the focus, the, you know, you think your dog's the best looking dog in the whole universe, it's the only dog that's alive, that counts, etc. etc. So you have some of the characteristics of intense romantic love and feelings of deep attachment, that second brain system. But you don't have any of these sex, sexual things. So it's the intimacy or physical intimacy that sets that apart. Yes. Okay, so here's an interesting... You can fall in love with your small baby too. And you know, you can fall in love with all kinds of things. But yes, it's that sexual component that's missing. Fall in love with a toaster. Yeah, yeah. Just don't have sex. Right, so I have a question on that animal frontier. Dogs were basically bred for their loyalty to humans, among other properties. So you know, there's an old saying, be the person who your dog thinks you are. Oh, how wonderful. Yeah, because your dog thinks you're the greatest thing ever. You come home, no matter what, no matter the day the dog had, no matter the day that you are the best person there ever was to happen to them. So that might fool you into thinking that this is a relationship and the person appreciates you for who and what you are. Now, cats, not so much. So do we have data to show that people have stronger relationships with their dogs than they do with their cats? Because the dog is reciprocal in its... Yes, and in fact, they call it chick bait. I mean, a man with a dog walking down the street picks up more girls than if he's walking along with a cat. Must love dogs, the whole movie with that title. Must love dogs. He's basically advertising that he can take care of something. That's a pretty low bar. Take care of a cat. Maybe he's good mating material. Actually, we've got data on that. He picks up the poop. You've been listening to a special mashup edition of Star Talk. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, and as always, I bid you to keep looking up.